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Off topic discussions


General News

By Sunny, Section Diary
Posted on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 11:40:00 EST

This is just a placeholder for me to continue some discussions currently under Zen's diary, which he has indicated he doesn't want there, and for similar purposes.  Feel free to use it for as long as it remains visible on the front page.

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Off topic discussions | 109 comments (109 topical, 0 editorial, 4 hidden)
Re: Off topic discussions (4.72 / 11) (#26)
by Sunny on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 15:07:56 EST
(User Info) http://www.streetdrummers.org/guarana
In Colonel Zen's diary, a PR said in a currently hidden comment

10 out of 37 postings censored here. Really hard work for 'elite' censors. And you better never again complain about PJ removing postings from her blog.

I have reviewed every single hidden post in that diary (all of them from PRs), and given them all the rating I think they deserve.  In most cases, that was 2, which is my normal rating for an utterly worthless post.

Not one of them detailed any F/OSS contribution made by a PR - the topic of the diary.  Not a single one!  Most of them were just whining about the hidden posts.

The pattern here is obvious.  You've no worthwhile contribution to make to this site.  You display total ignorance about all matters to do with F/OSS.  You've contributed nothing to the fight against SCO.  You've contributed no ideas to F/OSS.  You've released no code to F/OSS.  All you do is attack and disparage those who have.

  • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 15:33:34 EST (1.62 / 8)
Re: Off topic discussions (4.66 / 9) (#4)
by Sunny on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 12:21:42 EST
(User Info) http://www.streetdrummers.org/guarana
A PR said

Furthermore Mikey went on to split hairs about stallman claiming that stallman was only a member of the free software community.

As Jeff has pointed out, Stallman would not agree that Mikey was splitting hairs. Stallman is very keen to distance himself from Open Source, for example:

We are not against the Open Source movement, but we don't want to be lumped in with them. We acknowledge that they have contributed to our community, but we created this community, and we want people to know this. We want people to associate our achievements with our values and our philosophy, not with theirs. We want to be heard, not obscured behind a group with different views. To prevent people from thinking we are part of them, we take pains to avoid using the word ``open'' to describe free software, or its contrary, ``closed'', in talking about non-free software.

(From the Essay 'Why ``Free Software'' is better than ``Open Source'''

I suppose in that case we should subtract any GPLed code from the contributions of the ipwars community. The GPL is free software after all.

The GPL is indeed Free Software, as defined by the FSF.  It is also Open Source as defined by OSI.

  • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 14:28:25 EST (2.83 / 6)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 15:09:18 EST (4.18 / 11)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 15:21:46 EST (3.71 / 7)
        • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 15:44:12 EST (3.66 / 6)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:18:00 EST (1.42 / 7)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:14:19 EST (1.62 / 8)
        • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 22:23:43 EST (2.75 / 4)
          • FOSS: Flaming Other's Software Severely by hgc, 02/28/2005 06:33:17 EST (4.11 / 9)
            • Re: FOSS: Flaming Other's Software Severely by br3n, 02/28/2005 21:07:08 EST (3.80 / 5)
              • Re: FOSS: Flaming Other's Software Severely by Potential Recruit, 02/28/2005 21:51:19 EST (1.50 / 6)
Re: Off topic discussions (4.10 / 10) (#15)
by Sunny on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 13:40:59 EST
(User Info) http://www.streetdrummers.org/guarana
A PR said:

You know perfectly well that a public domain code is not open source.

Mikey has already shown that PD code is free software according to the FSF's definition.

However he misleadingly (albeit accurately) states that "public domain is not and OSI approved license."  Indeed, the public domain isn't a licence at all.  Public domain source code, is still Open Source, though.  It meets their definition; it was explicitely recognised in an earlier version of the definition (see section 10), and although it no longer appears in the current definition, there is nothing to indicate that they have changed their view of it.

  • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 13:59:28 EST (3.83 / 6)
  • minor meta suggestion by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 14:01:07 EST (3.60 / 5)
    • Re: minor meta suggestion by Sunny, 02/22/2005 14:54:22 EST (3.50 / 4)
Re: Off topic discussions (4.00 / 6) (#1)
by Sunny on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 11:50:48 EST
(User Info) http://www.streetdrummers.org/guarana
A PR said

Other people have mentioned very specific projects they worked on so we can measure and judge their contribution. Why is it a crime to ask harlan to be specific too?

It isn't.  I rated both the post asking the question, and this one, a 3.  Other people have marked them down, I guess, because there is a PRs who has been hectoring Harlan for some time, so any PR who is felt to be having a go at him (or at us generally about ratings) is likely to be suspected of trolling.

Nevertheless, both posts remain visible at this time (and were visible before I rated them).

If you are not that PR, and don't with to be associated with it, feel free to get an account.

  • Measure and judge by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 12:28:36 EST (3.85 / 7)
  • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 12:16:50 EST (2.66 / 6)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by daveventura, 02/22/2005 12:57:30 EST (3.87 / 8)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 14:33:44 EST (3.25 / 8)
        • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 15:13:25 EST (3.71 / 7)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by rex007can, 02/22/2005 16:24:48 EST (3.37 / 8)
            • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 16:41:30 EST (2.60 / 5)
              • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 17:36:34 EST (3.66 / 6)
                • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 18:28:59 EST (2.00 / 6)
                  • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 20:15:25 EST (4.00 / 5)
                    • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:24:46 EST (1.60 / 5)
                  • Re: Off topic discussions by total insanity, 02/22/2005 19:48:28 EST (3.66 / 6)
                    • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 19:56:53 EST (2.75 / 4)
                      • Re: Off topic discussions by br3n, 02/22/2005 20:18:22 EST (4.00 / 4)
                        • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:25:42 EST (2.50 / 6)
                          • Re: Off topic discussions by rex007can, 02/23/2005 09:39:25 EST (3.40 / 5)
                            • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/23/2005 11:42:20 EST (1.00 / 4)
                              • Re: Off topic discussions by br3n, 02/23/2005 12:23:34 EST (3.66 / 3)
                    • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 19:59:51 EST (2.71 / 7)
                      • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 20:16:09 EST (3.75 / 4)
                        • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 20:23:12 EST (3.25 / 8)
                    • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:23:37 EST (2.20 / 5)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 16:39:51 EST (2.25 / 4)
        • Standing to dispute. by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 16:19:55 EST (3.71 / 7)
          • Re: Standing to dispute. by heimdal31, 02/22/2005 16:35:23 EST (3.83 / 6)
            • Re: Standing to dispute. by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 20:04:11 EST (4.14 / 7)
              • Re: Standing to dispute. by total insanity, 02/22/2005 20:07:06 EST (3.80 / 5)
              • Re: Standing to dispute. by mikey, 02/22/2005 20:50:39 EST (3.50 / 6)
                • Scoop needs... by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 22:26:55 EST (4.00 / 7)
            • Re: Standing to dispute. by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 16:42:55 EST (1.71 / 7)
              • Re: Standing to dispute. by mikey, 02/22/2005 17:50:52 EST (4.00 / 6)
                • Re: Standing to dispute. by JCausey, 02/22/2005 17:57:09 EST (3.66 / 9)
                • Re: Standing to dispute. by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:29:17 EST (1.85 / 7)
                  • Re: Standing to dispute. by nathanh, 02/22/2005 23:17:12 EST (3.71 / 7)
                    • Re: Standing to dispute. by Potential Recruit, 02/23/2005 00:08:33 EST (3.85 / 7)
          • MOVE THIS POST by nono2sco, 02/22/2005 18:17:54 EST (3.50 / 4)
            • Re: MOVE THIS POST by Sunny, 02/22/2005 18:31:59 EST (3.75 / 4)
          • Re: Standing to dispute. by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 16:45:24 EST (1.12 / 8)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 15:37:34 EST (3.75 / 4)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 17:40:06 EST (3.33 / 3)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by rex007can, 02/22/2005 14:19:37 EST (3.72 / 11)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 14:30:31 EST (1.33 / 9)
        • Re: Off topic discussions by rex007can, 02/22/2005 16:15:31 EST (2.70 / 10)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 16:31:33 EST (2.50 / 6)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 19:46:58 EST (2.50 / 8)
          • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 15:42:58 EST (2.14 / 7)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 14:01:59 EST (3.60 / 5)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 12:29:40 EST (3.20 / 5)
Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson (3.75 / 8) (#5)
by mitmosnar on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 12:24:10 EST
(User Info)
For a guy that broke so much ground in the field of journalism, I am chagrined that the reaction to his death among free thinkers is so meagre.

So, a toast to Hunter S Thompson, who told it like it is!

  • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by mrbuttle, 02/22/2005 23:09:58 EST (3.75 / 4)
  • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:45:24 EST (1.16 / 6)
    • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by mitmosnar, 02/23/2005 08:43:48 EST (3.87 / 8)
      • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by JCausey, 02/23/2005 09:11:01 EST (4.00 / 7)
        • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by mitmosnar, 02/23/2005 11:50:41 EST (3.66 / 6)
      • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by br3n, 02/23/2005 09:40:57 EST (3.50 / 6)
      • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by Potential Recruit, 02/24/2005 00:13:15 EST (1.62 / 8)
        • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by mitmosnar, 02/24/2005 08:25:28 EST (4.25 / 8)
  • Re: Really OT: R.I.P. Hunter S Thompson by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 14:34:47 EST (1.09 / 11)
nono & sesostris (3.66 / 3) (#96)
by mrbuttle on Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 at 20:00:23 EST
(User Info)
I read your words elsewhere today, and I must tell you, well said.

As the saying goes, "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
;')

  • Re: nono &amp; sesostris by codswallet, 02/23/2005 20:45:48 EST (3.66 / 3)
    • Re: nono & sesostris by mrbuttle, 02/23/2005 22:28:37 EST (3.75 / 4)
      • Re: nono &amp; sesostris by codswallet, 02/23/2005 22:56:49 EST (3.75 / 4)
        • Re: nono &amp;amp; sesostris by nono2sco, 02/24/2005 00:00:02 EST (3.66 / 3)
  • Re: nono &amp; sesostris by nono2sco, 02/23/2005 20:22:50 EST (none / 2)
Re: Off topic discussions (3.62 / 8) (#22)
by Sunny on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 14:30:44 EST
(User Info) http://www.streetdrummers.org/guarana
A PR said in a hidden post (Quoted in full)

What a wonderful idea. Let's lay it out on the line.

Let's show the world how much it has benefitted from all the contributions you  guys have made.

So colonel open sourced a dead JDBC driver in 2002. In the announcement he says " This is pretty much a "dead" project as I have not upgraded it in several years." Meaning it was dead several years before it was open sourced. Still better then nothing I suppose.

It looks like he contributed a few patches to two more projects (how many lines colonel? and what did your patches accomplish?).

Finally he says he wrote something or another that wasn't code and it may or may not have influenced some unknown people at IBM.  That's pretty impressive.

I have a suggestion for you guys.

Mono, Colonel, br3n, harlan, mikey. Let's gather all your contributions to FOSS and then compare them to PJ or Stallman or perens. Ok maybe that's not really fair. Stallman and Perens do more in a day then you guys do in a year. Let's just compare them to PJ's contributions OK?

I've got a better suggestion.  Why don't we gather up all the PRs contributions to F/OSS and compare them to the Colonel's, Harlan's, Mikey's etc.  (Dunno who Mono is supposed to be.)

We can put together a web site and ask people to vote. The web site would contain links, one to a google search on GL and  others to a google searches on ipw, mono, mikey, zen, br3n, and harlan. Finally we would provide a link to this diary entry showing all your wonderful and important contributions to the FOSS movement.

Then it's a just a matter of putting together a simple poll and advertising the site on slashdot, yahoo, and such.

People can judge for themselves who has done more for FOSS. ColonelZen or PJ.



  • Re: Off topic discussions by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 15:25:58 EST (3.80 / 5)
  • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 17:04:50 EST (2.25 / 8)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by mikey, 02/22/2005 17:38:49 EST (4.00 / 6)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 15:35:13 EST (2.83 / 6)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 18:27:31 EST (4.00 / 7)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:40:32 EST (1.16 / 6)
    • Re: Off topic discussions by daveventura, 02/22/2005 17:27:37 EST (3.83 / 6)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Sunny, 02/22/2005 18:13:30 EST (3.60 / 5)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 22:41:58 EST (1.50 / 6)
      • Re: Off topic discussions by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 15:38:13 EST (1.14 / 7)
Flims diary has been deleted -> (3.57 / 7) (#2)
by system5 on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 11:57:50 EST
(User Info) http://lunchpale.blogspot.com
see administrative action - I agree that this is fair and should set an example for both "sides" on what is acceptable and what is not in a diary entry.

Thanks Sunny for this space.

syetem5
system5

  • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by Sunny, 02/22/2005 12:43:21 EST (3.88 / 9)
    • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by JCausey, 02/22/2005 17:50:00 EST (4.00 / 7)
    • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by ColonelZen, 02/22/2005 12:53:22 EST (3.85 / 7)
      • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by Sunny, 02/22/2005 13:00:19 EST (3.85 / 7)
    • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by daveventura, 02/22/2005 12:50:22 EST (3.66 / 9)
      • Re: Flims diary has been deleted. by matesrates, 02/22/2005 20:37:48 EST (3.62 / 8)
  • Re: Flims diary has been deleted -&gt; by Potential Recruit, 02/22/2005 13:06:54 EST (3.00 / 7)
    • Please keep CKX stuff by system5, 02/22/2005 13:18:11 EST (3.83 / 6)
Open source, free software, F/OSS, orange juice. (3.50 / 6) (#67)
by ColonelZen (tzellers lieth within pobox of thy kingdom com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 21:36:09 EST
(User Info)

Fundamentally I don't care what it's called.

To me it means that I can use the code in my toolbox or for a client without worrying overmuch.  Of course a client needs to know what license provisions apply (which in turn means I have to find out the client's intentions for the code before starting).  

But by and large F/OSS just means I have the source code and can use it, with the basic understanding that I have to pass on the source to anyone who gets to use the finished product.   Beyond that I don't much care.

FSF and OSI ... a pox on both your houses!  Ok there are some places where the fine distinctions may be meaningful.  Those who care can go .... argue with themselves!

Of course public domain is F/OSS.   I can get the code, I can use it, I don't have to worry.  By my standards it's F/OSS.  

-- TWZ

  • Re: Open source, free software, F/OSS, orange jui by mikey, 02/22/2005 21:49:29 EST (3.80 / 5)
American Idol (3.25 / 4) (#69)
by mikey (mikey at badpenguins dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2005 at 22:05:16 EST
(User Info) http://www.ip-wars.net
Anyone watch American Idol tonight?  Yeah, I know, it is corny as hell, but the wife makes me watch it :)

Simon Cowel: (You sucked).  When I die, I hope to come back as your microphone.


---
DISCLAIMER:
IANAL, may have no idea what the heck I am talking about, yadda yadda yadda.

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