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What I Would Like to See...


General News

By mikey, Section Diary
Posted on Sun Feb 27th, 2005 at 15:08:53 EST

This diary entry was originally posted as a comment to the article Software Rights Archive Changes Website.  A follow-up comment asked me to post it standalone to encourage more discussion.

I ask registered users to rate comments here by our resident crapflooder that are meant only to annoy readers without abandon.  Just leave one of the crapflood posts visible that gets across the gist of what the remaining crapfloods merely regurgitate.

Some random thoughts.

As linux and free and open source software becomes more and more mainstream, I can't help but remember what the Internet was like before Al Gore "invented" it.  Little to no spam, no penis enlargement adds, no Viagra pitches, searches turned up relevant results, newsgroups were the place to meet and discuss, no pop ups, a decidedly different feel.  The Internet felt like an academic/scientific community (an porn).

After Al Gore "invented" the Internet, meaning commercialized it, the Internet became something that only slightly resembles what I used to surf (porn still thrives).

Not that I am complaining, I make a good living providing commercial services over the Internet today.

Now I see the commercialization of free and open source software.  Slowly but surely, free/open source software and the culture that invented it is disappearing.

I forsee the day coming that people like me cannot post simple GPL'ed apps like yasuck or yaview, because the lawyers will put up too many barriers.  Some day it will just be too expensive a proposition to release a simple GPL'ed app.  Their will be too many barriers - I might step on some patent, I might not be able to afford to indemnify people from patent claims since I cannot afford indemnification.  Only large players like IBM, Novell, Red Hat, and Sun will be able to "afford" to release software under a free/open source license.

This is what I believe to be the most effective attack upon free/open source software.  The SCOs and Microsofts of the world don't really need to attack free/open source with IP lawsuits, the threat will suffice.  Motivating lawyers to get involved will suffice.  All the SCOs and Microsofts have to do is remove the ability/motivation of individual developers by making it too expensive in legal costs to force the price of free/open source up.  Microsoft does not have to attack free/open source directly, all they have to do is make it cost the same financially and cost more in legal expenses.

What is unbelievable to me is the fact that free/open source software is not any more vulnerable to outrageous legal costs as any software.  Just think of all of the small/medium software shops that might develop VB  apps for their own clients.  These developers and their clients are no less vulnerable to excessive litigation expense as any free/open source software distributor.  Contact any local small/medium developer in your locale and ask them if they provide indemnification for their products.  For example, if they write you a custom shopping cart application and the backend processing to handle it - how many patents might be held by others to sql triggers they use in your customized app?  It is not just the free/open source community that is at risk.

Which brings me to the topic of the current article.  Frankly, when lawyers are involved I am deeply skeptical.  The first time I visited the grokline web site, I was struck by how slick it was worded.  The text reads more like language you would see in a contract than a F/OSS project.  I have never seen anything like it in any other F/OSS related project.  The heavy legalese context immediately set off alarm bells for me.

Now add a few more anomalies to the mix.  One minute the project is owned by one person, the next minute it appears to be owned by OSRM, there has been no explanation other than it is in the business interest of OSRM to host it.  Each project seems to tie into the other, yet one is supposed to be owned by PJ, the other by OSRM.  They state they are writing for the "policy makers", well, what exactly are they going to tell the "policy makers"?  Will they be encouraging policy that benefits their insurance business, or free/open source?  What are they encouraging policy makers in Europe, no software patents or "sane" software patents?  How exactly will the free/open source community benefit from what they are doing?  The software archive appears to be a product developed by lawyers, for lawyers.  Well, who has access to the data, and what if the data itself is damning to free/open source?  Will IP law firms who are hostile to free/open source be sold access to data and learn exactly which 286 patents threaten the linux kernel?

These are all questions I can't find answers to.  I guess I am supposed to just trust that these relatively unknown VC/Lawyers know what is best for free/open source and are acting in the best interest of free/open source.  I am just supposed to take the contradictory words of paralegal who worked for them and a lone crapflooder on ip-wars.  I have read many interviews with Eggers where he implies that prominent free/open source leaders endorse OSRM's insurance product, yet I have not read any direct quotes from any of them who are not financially tied to OSRM.

What I would like to see is the OSI come up with some sort of "seal of approval" for companies like OSRM.  I assume OSI has a trademark on the words "open source", it would be nice to see them hold companies to a code of ethics before being allowed to commercially use that trademark.  OSI does it for licenses, it would be great to see them come up with a way to do it for companies.  Something like this would help relieve a lot of my skepticism.  An open source Better Business Bureau.

There are quite a few companies that I already feel "get it" when it comes to free/open source.  IBM is at the top of the list.  I trust pretty much any member of OSDL, for that matter.

I will wrap up with a question for the PR who appears to believe that OSRM would deserve such a "stamp of approval".  What is it about OSRM that makes you believe they are friendly towards free/open source?  Do you know something we don't?  Why the loyalty to them?  Do you believe insurance is a good thing for Free/Open Source?  Why?

< EU Software Patents Directive - What is a Technical Effect? (10 comments) | An excellent interview with RMS (51 comments) >
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What I Would Like to See... | 64 comments (64 topical, 0 editorial, 16 hidden)
Re: What I Would Like to See... (4.16 / 6) (#1)
by ColonelZen (tzellers lieth within pobox of thy kingdom com) on Sun Feb 27th, 2005 at 16:07:31 EST
(User Info)

IANAL: Not valid where prohibited.

Given that there are rules and case law on using copyright to extend copyright I don't know whether this would stand, but one thought I have on this would be, when releasing software, to add something like this:

----

This software is licensed under the GPL 2.0 ....

However the author reserves the right to refute and deny license to this software by explicit notice to any person, group, or other legal entity, their representatives and agents and others acting on their behalf, who act in a manner to deny right granted by a free software license to this or any similarly licensed work to any other persons or entities.   This may be invoked at the sole discretion of the author of the this software in cases where one party brings legal action or publically threatens legal action for use of GPL or similarly licensed software against any other party for claims of copyright, patent, or other intellectual property infringements which have not been previously demonstrated to and upheld by a competant court.  

----

This is theoretically not necessary as I understand it, since the author always has the right to license or not.  But this language may lessen the applicability of an estoppel defense in such cases.  

The legal problems are that patents, as well as copyrights are valid legal objects, and such language may be construed as against public interest and intent on denying them as such.  The "upheld by a competant court" gives some leverage as they are creations of administrative law but it is the judicial branch which gets to weigh their validity.  Essentially this language pits administrative action against judiciary.

The real key is that it needs to be established that protecting the integrity of a free software license by an author is a proper interest beyond interest in his own rights to his creation.

Fyodor's NMAP and SCO stands as real world precedent though it never went to court, SCO apparently tripped over itself to comply with his demand.

I would like to hear what more legally knowledgable people have to say about this.

-- TWZ

  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/27/2005 16:32:50 EST (4.00 / 7)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by ColonelZen, 02/27/2005 16:48:00 EST (4.00 / 6)
      • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/27/2005 16:57:47 EST (3.71 / 7)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/27/2005 18:21:05 EST (4.00 / 6)
      • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/27/2005 19:20:01 EST (3.83 / 6)
        • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/27/2005 20:07:25 EST (3.60 / 5)
          • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/28/2005 19:44:17 EST (4.00 / 4)
            • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/28/2005 20:22:28 EST (4.20 / 5)
              • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/28/2005 20:48:45 EST (4.00 / 5)
  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by codswallet, 02/27/2005 19:43:01 EST (3.83 / 6)
  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 16:24:16 EST (3.80 / 5)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/27/2005 17:36:37 EST (4.00 / 5)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by ColonelZen, 02/27/2005 16:33:14 EST (3.66 / 6)
      • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 18:21:14 EST (4.00 / 5)
        • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/27/2005 18:33:30 EST (3.60 / 5)
          • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 18:41:52 EST (3.80 / 5)
          • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 18:59:58 EST (3.80 / 5)
            • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/27/2005 19:48:51 EST (3.80 / 5)
              • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 22:09:01 EST (3.25 / 4)
                • Re: What I Would Like to See... by harlan wilkerson, 02/28/2005 03:35:32 EST (3.50 / 4)
          • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 02/27/2005 18:40:12 EST (3.75 / 4)
Re: What I Would Like to See... (2.00 / 12) (#19)
by Potential Recruit on Sun Feb 27th, 2005 at 22:26:14 EST
You started your entry with a dig at Al Gore using an accusation that has already been discredited a thousand times.

While that may be hilarious to your freeper buddies to everybody else it completely destroys any credibility you may have had.

  • Thanks for the edu by ColonelZen, 02/27/2005 22:34:23 EST (3.75 / 4)
  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by daveventura, 02/28/2005 12:24:54 EST (3.50 / 4)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by ColonelZen, 02/28/2005 12:27:22 EST (3.66 / 3)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by Potential Recruit, 02/28/2005 21:40:22 EST (1.00 / 6)
      • Re: What I Would Like to See... by nono2sco, 02/28/2005 21:58:33 EST (none / 2)
Re: What I Would Like to See... (1.71 / 7) (#53)
by Potential Recruit on Tue Mar 1st, 2005 at 11:01:52 EST
Where to start?

>>I can't help but remember what the Internet was like before Al Gore "invented" it.<<

Al Gore didn't commercialize the Internet. Gore wanted a federally sponsored and financed "information superhighway". That never happened. It was private enterprise that created the fibre links and router farms that make up the backbone of the 'Net today.

It was those same private entreprenuers that pushed the 'Net into commercialization - complain to them.

Here is a line from a published statement by Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf, the true architechs of the Internet.

"But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time."

>>Slowly but surely, free/open source software and the culture that invented it is disappearing.<<

I don't understand what you are talking about, there is nothing further from the truth. There are more ongoing FOSS projects under development now than at any time in the past.

>>Their (sic) will be too many barriers - I might step on some patent, I might not be able to afford to indemnify people from patent claims since I cannot afford indemnification.<<

Once again you display an amazing ignorance of some simple facts about patents. As an example, the word 'patent' means 'to publish'. The rights extended to patent holders is in exhange for making known the secret workings of their invention.

Prior art is the enemy of patent seekers/holders because that is the tool that decides the scope or even the viability of any patent. The open source community in league with lawyers and stakeholders are working to develop an effective database of prior art in which to fuel defences and assaults on patent landgrabs.

The enemy is Microsoft and all their creatures, not some VC/lawyers running OSRM.

As for trademarks, what makes you think OSI has a trademerk on Open Source?

If you really want to respect trademarks, why did you decide to name your website badpenquins which is confusingly similiar to madpenguin? 'madpenquin' is well known and respected in the open source community and yet you seek to capitalize on their famous mark by merely making a small change in your spelling in order to benefit from their trade.

Your mark which you trade with is confusingly similar to madpenquin's trademark. You are an abuser of somebody elses well earned property rights.

You see, it is not that you shouldn't comment about issues concerning property rights and the open source community, it is just that you really should know something about what you are takling about.

Courtesy Robbie the Robot

  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by mikey, 03/01/2005 12:41:12 EST (4.80 / 5)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by Potential Recruit, 03/01/2005 18:51:13 EST (1.83 / 6)
  • Re: What I Would Like to See... by nono2sco, 03/01/2005 11:37:43 EST (3.66 / 3)
    • Re: What I Would Like to See... by nono2sco, 03/01/2005 13:06:57 EST (none / 2)
What is a crap flood? (1.00 / 13) (#23)
by Potential Recruit on Mon Feb 28th, 2005 at 03:45:45 EST
By crapflood I presume you mean posting the same thing over and over again.

Kind of like posting yet another article about OSRM. So you guys keep posting what amounts to is the exact same article over and over again about OSRM and then complain about other people crapflooding you.

Pot, meet kettle.

  • Calling out Tim Ransom aka mitmosnar by ColonelZen, 02/28/2005 11:21:05 EST (4.00 / 5)
    • Re: Calling out Tim Ransom aka mitmosnar by mitmosnar, 02/28/2005 11:43:02 EST (3.33 / 6)
      • MOVED by ColonelZen, 02/28/2005 12:06:19 EST (3.60 / 5)
  • Re: What is a crap flood? by nono2sco, 02/28/2005 11:35:46 EST (4.00 / 3)
  • Re: What is a crap flood? by mikey, 02/28/2005 10:17:10 EST (3.40 / 5)
  • And when was the last story about OSRM? by fudisbad, 02/28/2005 05:56:13 EST (2.85 / 7)
  • Re: What is a crap flood? by Potential Recruit, 02/28/2005 08:21:36 EST (1.18 / 11)
    • Re: What is a crap flood? by Sesostris III, 02/28/2005 09:48:42 EST (3.87 / 8)
      • Re: What is a crap flood? by codswallet, 02/28/2005 10:48:01 EST (3.66 / 6)
      • Re: What is a crap flood? by mikey, 02/28/2005 10:53:22 EST (3.20 / 5)
        • Re: What is a crap flood? by codswallet, 02/28/2005 11:13:05 EST (4.33 / 6)
    • Re: What is a crap flood? by daveventura, 02/28/2005 10:13:17 EST (3.33 / 6)
Bye bye spambot (none / 0) (#64)
by Potential Recruit on Tue Nov 28th, 2006 at 13:38:19 EST
This used to be a spambot post that is flooding the site. Due to volume, I had to resort to this while I work to block access by these bots. My apologies - thanks for your patience.

Jeff

What I Would Like to See... | 64 comments (64 topical, 0 editorial, 16 hidden)
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